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Reloads rules question

posted Feb 20, 2018 21:18:51 by crashprone
So, I'm looking at the core rulebook and I'm a bit confused. I have two contradictory rules. On pg 339 is:

“Remembering that since Reloads are not required to fire a ranged weapon and are not expended through normal use of the weapon, this rating indicates that the character has a small supply of the ammunition in question.”

Then pg 356:

“Running out of Reloads means that the weapon has completely run out of ammunition and is unable to be used for further attacks until additional ammunition is purchased.”

My best guess interpretation is that to avoid buying a useless weapon it comes with some bullets, and for all intents and purposes you just don't run out of ammo. If you buy some reloads, then running out of reloads means your out of ammunition. Or does the second passage refer specifically to things like munition weapons that require reloads to fire?
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12 replies
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darkdaysdawn said Feb 21, 2018 18:17:25
Additionally, what happens if you find a ranged weapon on a dead enemy? It'll have 0 Reloads. Can you use it as such, because after all, the enemy was shooting at you with it, so he had *some* ammo.

Also, the way the rules are written I could, for example, buy a pistol and never buy Reloads for it. Then I can just keep it as a back-up weapon with infinite ammunition -- using the "small supply of the ammunition" indefinitely.
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SteveHanson said Feb 21, 2018 20:56:55
Basically even though you can use a weapon at 0 reloads your gm as a complication can make you "out of ammo"
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darkdaysdawn said Feb 21, 2018 22:00:23
The core book doesn't actually say, or suggest (that I can find) that the GM can, as a complication, suddenly make you "out of ammo". It does suggest on p33 that the GM could remove a resource as a complication, and in parentheses it says "like a Reload". There's a distinction between removing a resource and announcing "you're out of ammo...period". The latter is pretty heavy handed and if your group is ok with that, fine, but it should probably cost 4 Heat (i.e. be a Major Complication). But as a standard complication, removing a resource doesn't work if you don't have any of said resource to remove. Sure, a GM can do anything they want (or so says the philosophy of many), but whatever they do should be within reason, and should be inline with expectations the players have gained from reading the same rule book the GM read. Anyway...that doesn't really address any of the questions.

I would still like to know if p339 and p356 are contradictory rules by error, or if the designer had something in mind that was perhaps omitted by mistake? It would be much simpler to say, "Zero is zero. If you have 0 Reloads, you have 0 ammunition for that weapon and may not fire it. If you buy a guy, it has 0 Reloads -- you must purchase ammo separately. If you loot a gun from an enemy who was just shooting at you, it comes with 1 Reload." Then there are no "infinite ammo" loopholes, or confusion about when zero means zero vs when zero means "a small supply".

I love the abstraction of a Reload vs tracking actual rounds of ammunition. But overloading the meaning of "zero" just creates confusion -- especially when the two definitions of "zero" are 17 pages apart in the book.
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uthred said Feb 22, 2018 02:28:17
It would be nice to have it cleared up but in the meantime the simplest solution is to rule that every gun you purchase, or grab of a dead enemy comes with 1 Reload worth of its basic ammo. This means that you basically have infinite basic bullets until you expend that Reload.
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admiraljcjf said Feb 22, 2018 02:38:38
I don't see any contradiction.

Like most of the rest of the equipment rules, ammunition is abstracted.

Running out of ammo is absolutely a minor complication, one which is usually easily resolved with a minor action (inserting a reload) but which does put pressure on the PC if they don't have reloads (usually because they have burned through their ammo too fast).

Keep in mind that guns in Infinity are mostly nano flash forge fed, with the "ammo" simply being feed material for the flash forge.

So "infinite ammo" is very nearly true... until you really start spamming out full auto fire.
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uthred said Feb 22, 2018 02:47:09
The contradiction is that pg. 339 says you can fire normal ammo from your gun if you have 0 Reloads. pg. 356 implies that if you have 0 Reloads you cant fire your gun at all. But looking at it again a literal reading is that "Running out" of Reloads is what causes you to run out of all ammo, not actually being at 0 Reloads i.e. it is the act of going from X Reloads to 0 Reloads that forces you to run out of ammo, not actually being at 0 Reloads. So the literal interpretation does indeed remove any contradiction, but it does mean its somewhat awkwardly written.
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darkdaysdawn said Feb 22, 2018 20:31:48
@uthred Your description makes sense. It's still kind of wonky the way they've written it though. And there's the word "initially" on p339 that supports your explanation too. But again, it's not very well worded.

I'm inclined to think it would be simpler to say that if you buy/find a gun, it has 1 Reload; 0 Reloads thus means "you cannot shoot" in every possible situation for every ranged weapon. No exceptions, loopholes, or confusion remain as far as I can tell.
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uthred said Feb 22, 2018 23:36:43
I agree it is confusingly written, ideally rules should be clear through a casual interpretation rather than an overly literal one. For my upcoming campaign I'm going to go with the "if you buy/find a gun, it has 1 Reload; 0 Reloads thus means "you cannot shoot"" option just for the sake of transparency.
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crashprone said Feb 23, 2018 20:56:12
This is more related to being a house rule, but as we've been talking about this I think my plan going forward is as follows:

0 reloads = you're out of ammunition and cannot fire the weapon.
Buy a gun and it comes with 0 reloads, so you'll have to buy a reload when you buy it in order to fire.
Find someone else's gun and I like the idea of it being 1+1[CD] reloads in the weapon. Then effect is a -1 reload.

That way it's clear to the party, if you're buying a gun you'll need to buy some ammo to use it, but if you find a gun there's a chance it's empty or a chance it's full up and ready to fire! I guess we'll have to see how it plays out in the actual game. Might end up being too much book keeping, but I like having the PCs capable of running out of ammo at inopportune moment if it'll amp up the action!
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uthred said Feb 23, 2018 20:58:11
If you're going with 0 Reloads = out of ammo then I think you should give them 1 free reload of basic ammo when they buy a gun.
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crashprone said Feb 23, 2018 22:05:44
That's a good option too. Normal reload is 2+1[CD] for a pack of 3, so that is a bit expensive if you've also just bought the gun. I think it'd definitely be fine to include 1 reload with purchase for stuff like pistols and combis. I'm a bit more reluctant to include one if it's something like a missile launcher though? Something like a munitions gun that can do some heavy damage. It's probably still fine though. I'm thinking in the next game we play we can try it the 0 reloads way and if that's too annoying or it's overburdening to buy reloads then we can switch easily.
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MDR101 said Aug 07, 2018 12:52:30
I found this all a bit confusing since 2D20 was introduced to the world with Mutant Chronicles 3rd Ed.. The best way for me to get my head around it was to remove the 're' from reload. The firearm is either 'loaded' or 'unloaded', you buy 'Loads' (in the form of magazines or whatever), and 'reload' the gun when necessary.

A Complication or using an Ammo Quality (or relevant weapon Quality) expends the remaining 'Load' of ammunition in the firearm (magazine) requiring it to be "re-Loaded"...

So if you pick up a gun, it will be loaded unless the NPC (or PC) unloaded it as part of their previous use of it as stated above. I know, it's not that different as written, but I just found the use of the word 'Reload' for using up ammunition confusing with regards as to whether a weapon was loaded or not..
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