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What is the penalty for using advanced skills without the parent skill?

posted Jun 16, 2016 14:15:15 by HappyDaze
I'm not understanding what the link between an advanced skill and the parent skill is supposed to be. If I have Command but not Persuade, what effect does this have on my Command tests?
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14 replies
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SteveHanson said Jun 16, 2016 15:30:30
Attempting an advanced skill without expertise training is significantly more challenging. First, the lack of training with an advanced skill increases the difficulty by one step. Second, a character is considered Impaired while attempting an advanced skill with no training, which means the critical failure range on each die is increased from 20 to 19-20.
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To his friend a man
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To him and the friend of his friend;
But never a man
shall friendship make
With one of his foeman's friends.
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HappyDaze said Jun 16, 2016 16:14:46
You didn't quite get what I was asking.

If I have a character with Command (E1/F0) and no Persuade, does this in any way hamper my use of Command?

Likewise, if I have a character with Space (E1/F0) and no Pilot, does this in any way hamper my use of Space?

The text alludes to needing the parent skill to get the advanced skill (unless the advanced skill is a signature skill), but I can't seem to actually find the rules on this.
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BillMorton said Jun 16, 2016 18:29:13
You can attempt an advanced skill test, like Command, without any expertise picks in Persuade without penalty. The issue is as described above, critical failure range is increased from 20 to 19-20. I'm trying to remember if that range increase is doubling or one step. In other words if your Dread is already 19-20 does the critical failure increase by one step (18-20) or double (17-20)?

There is no prereq for having an expertise pick in a skill to have an expertise pick in the advanced skill. In fact there are some character creation decisions that'll give you advanced skills right off the bat.
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Pat Murray said Jun 16, 2016 22:40:22
The rule you are looking for is in the Signature Skills section in chapter 7 on page 76 of the rule book. It clearly states that "Advanced skill chosen as signature skills ignore the normal requirements to have training in their parent skill". Although I cannot find this rule anywhere else (Though it is echoed in the same spot in the Players Guide, Chp 5, page 56).

Obviously I can't speak as to why this is there, or what is intended. But as both Bill and Steve have stated, as you do not have training in the General Skill you are hampered as discribed in the Unskilled Tests Section (Chp 7, pg 78).
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HappyDaze said Jun 16, 2016 22:54:44
So there's really no reason to associate an advanced skill to a basic skill at all.
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Pat Murray said Jun 17, 2016 01:54:36
I wouldn't go that far. As far as I can tell you still suffer the penalties described by both Bill and Steve.
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HappyDaze said Jun 17, 2016 03:29:00
Bill says no penalty in his first sentence. Steve didn't answer the question at all since I'm talking about having expertise in the advanced skill but not in the parent skill. So where are you seeing penalties?
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BillMorton said Jun 17, 2016 04:45:21
The penalty is the increased critical failure range.
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HappyDaze said Jun 17, 2016 05:04:30
So if I am using an advanced skill without expertise in it and without expertise in the parent skill, I take both penalties?

The rules do not appear to be written that way.

As written:

If I have Command (E0/F0) and Persuade (E0/F0), I make Command tests at a moderate penalty and I make Persuade tests at a mild penalty

If I have Command (E0/F0) and Persuade (E1/F0), I make Command tests at a moderate penalty and I make Persuade tests at no penalty.

If I have Command (E1/F0) and Persuade (E0/F0), I make Command tests at no penalty and I make Persuade tests at a mild penalty.

If I have Command (E1/F0) and Persuade (E1/F0), I make Command tests at no penalty and I make Persuade tests at no penalty.

If you notice, THE PENALTY FOR COMMAND TESTS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT I HAVE EXPERTISE IN THE PARENT SKILL, ONLY WHETHER OR NOT I HAVE IT IN COMMAND.
[Last edited Jun 17, 2016 05:09:14]
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Nathan.Dowdell said Jun 17, 2016 10:04:47
Calm down. No need for all-caps posting.

In an earlier draft of the game, you were unable to increase an Advanced Skill's ranks (in either Expertise or Focus) past the rank of the parent skill. I changed that late during development as it caused numerous issues elsewhere, mainly in character creation where it was far too easy to get ranks in advanced skills that would be wasted because the character hadn't picked up the parent skill.

In short, and as described on page 76, under Advanced Skills, lacking at least Expertise 1 in the Parent Skill means that, regardless of how many ranks you have in the Advanced Skill, you suffer the untrained penalty on the Advanced Skill.

So, if you have Command (E1/F0) and Persuade (E0/F0), you suffer the Untrained penalty on Command tests (+2 Repercussion range, +1 difficulty).

Yes, this could be clearer in the text. It would be if the change had been made before the rulebook was in layout; a change made in layout means you can't significantly change the number of words (or else you risk screwing up the entire layout), so the change isn't as clear as it needs to be.

Incidentally, this whole matter is also why we've removed the Basic/Advanced skill distinction in subsequent 2D20 system games.
Game Development - 2D20 System
System Design - Star Trek Adventures

Rules questions and playtest feedback to nathan@modiphius.com
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ShadowWalker said Jun 17, 2016 15:25:32
Incidentally, this whole matter is also why we've removed the Basic/Advanced skill distinction in subsequent 2D20 system games.

Is there a chance that you (Modiphius) will release revised/updated rulebook that includes such improvements in 2D20 system for MC3?
[Last edited Jun 17, 2016 15:26:00]
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SteveHanson said Jun 17, 2016 17:46:33
ShadowWalker, you always have the option of modifying the rules you are using and making it a house rule.
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To his friend a man
a friend shall prove,
To him and the friend of his friend;
But never a man
shall friendship make
With one of his foeman's friends.
--Havamal
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ShadowWalker said Jun 18, 2016 05:59:34
ShadowWalker, you always have the option of modifying the rules you are using and making it a house rule.

I know Steve, but if the new version of 2D20 is much better than current MC3 why not giving MC3 an option for upgrade? I would buy such a rulebook without complaints being happy that the system is better (after all wouldn't it only affect a rulebook without invalidating the sourcebooks?).
[Last edited Jun 18, 2016 06:11:19]
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Nathan.Dowdell said Jun 18, 2016 12:11:31
There'd be a number of knock-on effects on the sourcebooks (amongst the changes that go alongside the removal of Advanced Skills is a reduced skill list; Infinity doesn't have a Heavy Weapons or Gunnery skill, or a divided Treatment/Medicine skill, for example), but the main reason is time - there's a lot going on, and the priority with Mutant Chronicles (and any of our games) is to release all the material that was funded by the Kickstarter before we get to other projects.

Certainly, a document of optional variant rules based on the changes we've made to the system is something I'd like to do personally (as it'd make it easier for me to run Mutant Chronicles with those changes as well), but finding the time to do it (as an extra project not initially planned for) is a challenge in its own right when we've got numerous other things to finish first.
Game Development - 2D20 System
System Design - Star Trek Adventures

Rules questions and playtest feedback to nathan@modiphius.com
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