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Modiphius > Mutant Chronicles Playtest Discussion (CLOSED)

Beta 9.5 Discussion

posted Jul 11, 2014 18:04:35 by ChrisBirch
Please post your views and queries of the final Beta test document here.
[Last edited Feb 10, 2016 00:04:54]
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656 replies
Benn said Jul 14, 2014 21:29:31

Wow thats an awesome (and impressive) amount of feedback.
I'm going to read over your list and see what I can do about getting a formal response.

Thanks for all the effort!


Everyone's welcome in the pit!

Nicholas Simpson said Jul 14, 2014 22:10:02
Thanks, I think part of me always wished to be an editor/game designer, so I enjoy looking at these kind of things. I'm going to try to go through ALL of the beta, including the other files. Don't worry about a formal response to everything, I'm just trying to point out my own reactions to everything in the beta.
Nicholas Simpson said Jul 15, 2014 01:04:03
-What is the Penalty for using a ranged weapon in melee? Does this penalty apply to ranged spells?

-Can standard actions be exchanged for extra restricted actions/free actions?

Chapter 7:
-Page 21 Under Spending Group Momentum: Can this only be spent on a successful roll?

Chapter 10:
-Given the ranges (reach/close/medium/long/extreme) can an attack or spell target something at a lower range band without penalty? (e.g. can a Close range attack hit something at Reach range without penalty)

Chapter 17:
-Page 67-68 under Sense Weaves of Power: How long does this effect last?

-I think it would help to standardize this with spells by including duration for dark arts the same way spells have duration included.

-Do ranged spells face any of the same penalties faced by normal ranged attacks (eg darkness, shooting from a moving platform, etc)

Chapter 18: The Arts of the Light
-Page 81 under Casting Spells: The critical failure penalty caused by casting a spell is said to stack with other penalties, but it says if there's a larger critical range from Dread to use that instead. Does this mean that the critical failure range from dread should be seen as separate from any other effects, and does not stack with them?

-Page 81-82 under Casting Spells: Am I correct in reading that players have a choice to either buy extra d20s for casting spells by taking 1 mental damage per d20 OR by spending 2 DSPs per d20?

-Page 82 under Casting Spells: Do the effects from critical failure on a spell check replace the normal effects for critical failure (add 2 DSPs or add a complication) or do they add to them? Does this only apply to critical failures and not rolling in the critical threat range on a successful test?

-Are there key terms for failing and rolling a 20 (or within critical threat) versus succeeding and rolling a 20 (or within critical threat)? Is there a term just for rolling a 20 (or within critical threat)?

-Page 82 critical failures table: Does this table only take effect if 2+ critical failures are rolled? Do these only take effect on a failed roll or a successful one, too? It seems really unlikely that 5+ will ever happen, but who knows. Also, is gaining 1 Dread seen to be worse than becoming Dazed or Staggered?

-Page 83 under Touched: Same question as for Dark Arts; does dodging this count as a Dodge/Parry?

-Page 83-84 under Concentration: Assuming you keep the rules on restricted actions, this means that a Concentrating character cannot use any restricted actions, correct? Also, can another spell be cast while one is being concentrated on? If so, is the penalty to critical failure range cumulative?

-Page 84 Under Momentum Spends: I assume Increase Range cannot be used on spells targeting Self, either? If increased targets is spent on a Touch spell, does each target have to be touched/have a chance to dodge?

-Page 85 Under Necessary Momentum: Given this rule on applying momentum spends to the base difficulty, it seems like the best strategy for increasing targets is to only target one to begin with, then spend momentum to increase afterward. The only time this rule would help a character is attacking someone outside of spell range, otherwise the player has no reason to use it.

-Do ranged spells face any of the same penalties faced by normal ranged attacks (eg darkness, shooting from a moving platform, etc) ?

-Can spells be dodged/parried and are they affected by cover?

-Page 87 under Crimson Bulwark: who is the Soak granted to? Self only? Can this be modified by other momentum?

-Page 87-88 Under Distant Will: So does this at a maximum increase range from Close to Extreme? (Close>Medium>Long>Extreme)

-Page 88 under Barrier: Can the player choose the shape of the shield and its facing? Can it bear weight and if so how much? Can it be passed through by anyone? Can multiple shields be made and if so can they be stacked? Can they be stacked if made by different characters?

-Page 90 under Levitate: Do you have to spend 1 momentum to change the target to one creature touched before spending 1 momentum to add another target?

-Page 90 under Singularity: Given the abstract nature of close range/zones, maybe it could work to say that while this spell is in effect the Zone counts as difficult terrain and failing a roll results in falling into being pulled into the singularity. Also, does the singularity affect the caster if he is in range?

-Page 91 under Strike: Can the caster be affected by the Blast quality of this spell?

-Page 91 under Teleportation: Does teleporting multiple target mean that each object follows the weight restriction or that all objects combined follow the weight restriction? Also, does the ability to teleport oneself as a free action get resolved as a baseline of 3 difficulty each time it is used? Also, wouldn't it be easier to just say anywhere within medium range?

-Page 93-94 under Avatar: does the momentum spend to count a d20 as having rolled a one have to be spent during that turn or can it be spent each turn Avatar is active. If the latter, does this "refresh" each turn allowing you to change momentum number of d20s to 1s? Is the momentum spend for reducing damage caused by the Avatar spell, and can it be spent twice to reduce damage to zero?

-Page 94 under Inner Gaze: Can this be used over and over if desired?

-Page 95 under perfection: Can the additional bonus d20 for two momentum be bought multiple times?

-Page 95 under swiftness: can the additional action per 2 momentum be bought more than once?

-Page 96 under Void: Do the re-rolled dice for Stealth tests keep rolling until a success is generated, or just get rerolled once? Can the player still be harmed by spells/dark arts?

-Page 98 ease suffering: does this apply to only the list in chapter 13? Does it apply to Critically Injured and if it applies to the penalties of being Critically Injured, I assume the wounds remain?

-Page 99 under Exorcise Disease: Does this success count towards rolling resistance tests agains the disease or does it count as a successful test for determining whether the disease is cured or goes into remission?

-Page 99 under Exorcise Madness: Can the momentum spend to remove a madness be bought more than once?

-Page 99-100 under Exorcise Poision: I may not have gotten to them yet, but are there rules for poision in the book? If not, maybe they could be added into the disease rules as a special class of disease. The momentum spend seems kind of weak compared to the main effect. Maybe have it gie immunity to poison for an hour instead?

-Page 100 under Exorcise Wound: The momentum spend should have the same clarification for healing different levels of wounds that the Regeneration spell has.

-Page 100 under Exorcise Mortality: The momentum spend to recover additional wounds should have the same clarification as above.

-Page 104 under Hypnosis: Causing to come to harm is pretty broad. What if its something like breaking into a store if the penalty for getting caught is losing a hand? Maybe it would be better stated as "The cannot be persuaded to do anything that would definitely cause him to come to immediate harm, though he may be persuaded into risky behavior." Also, is the lingering suggestion momentum spend under the same restriction of harm?
Sebastian Fredenberg said Jul 15, 2014 07:43:32
I want to add a comment regarding armour and cover. I like that the damage often is greater than the protection, getting shot at should would you. The armour might soak some, or if really lucky, all damage. One of the really bad things in the old version was that armour could make you more or less invincible. That only takes away all the danger and risk of going into a well as taking too long time to play :)

So if you change armour to be more effective, please don't go overboard as it was in previous versions :)
Nicholas Simpson said Jul 15, 2014 15:42:07
As I've looked at the numbers, I'm kind of digging the low armor values, mostly because the damage values in average cap out around 6 damage (albeit with a small possibility of dealing up to something like 16 damage for the most powerful weapons. Here are the actual probabilities for rolling DS for damage (dis including the DSI symbol). Also, for shorthand, you can see each DS as adding 0.5 damage on average (1+2+0+0+0+0)/6=0.5

16.67% chance of 1
16.67% chance of 2
66.67% chance of 0

22.22% chance of 1
25% chance of 2
5.56% chance of 3
2.78% chance of 4
43.44% chance of 0

22.22% chance of 1
27.78% chance of 2
11.57% chance of 3
6.94% chance of 4
1.39% chance of 5
0.46% chance of 6
29.63% chance of 0

19.75% of 1
27.16% of 2
16.05% of 3
11.19% of 4
4.01% of 5
1.70% of 6
0.31% of 7
0.08% of 8
19.75% of 0

16.46% of 1
24.69% of 2
18.52% of 3
14.66% of 4
7.21% of 5
3.67% of 6
1.16% of 7
0.39% of 8
0.06% of 9
0.01% of 10
13.17% of 0

13.17% of 1
21.40% of 2
19.20% of 3
16.98% of 4
10.34% of 5
6.09% of 6
2.58% of 7
1.06% of 8
0.30% of 9
0.08% of 10
0.01% of 11
0% of 12
8.78% of 0

10.24% of 1
17.92% of 2
18.56% of 3
18.08% of 4
12.92% of 5
8.61% of 6
4.46% of 7
2.15% of 8
0.81% of 9
0.28% of 10
0.07% of 11
0.02% of 12
0% of 13
0% of 14
5.85% of 0

7.80% of 1
14.63% of 2
17.07% of 3
18.14% of 4
14.72% of 5
10.91% of 6
6.56% of 7
3.61% of 8
1.64% of 9
0.68% of 10
0.23% of 11
0.07% of 12
0.02% of 13
0% of 14
0% of 15
0% of 16
3.90% of 0

So you can see that the damage dice by themselves are fairly low. However, they do also each add at least 1 extra damage for every weapon. In general, weapons seem to be capable of dealing more damage on average than armor can soak. This in essence means that for all but the most uneven cases (very powerful armor vs. very small weaponry) armor can only reduce damage rather than negate it. I also don't have the materials in front of me to check how many wounds most characters have, which also affects how deadly this is. I would throw out, though, that being injured once creates a distinct possibility of a death spiral for players, as healing goes very slowly.
Benn said Jul 15, 2014 19:13:19
Good to see someone else has run the numbers. I'll have to compare them against my own. I note you've not included DSI effects (reduces 0's to .5 and makes mapping a 3 dimensional affair)

Combat is very dangerous. A limb hit can put you into serious wounds very quickly. The big question is how does it play out. We've been doing playtests for a while with nothing much reported. If anyone has any war stories with examples of players faring poorly on these numbers I'd love to hear them.


Everyone's welcome in the pit!

Nicholas Simpson said Jul 15, 2014 21:30:11
I was actually going to go back and run the numbers with DSIs being counted separately rather than adding to the success rating. It is my understanding that DSIs do NOT add anything to damage and only cause special effects to happen, correct?

Also, I'm running the numbers on the d20 system and seeing some interesting things. One thing that I looked at and confirmed is that increasing expertise or focus both effectively add 0.1 successes. For example, a starting attribute of 8 rolling 2d20 (with 0 focus) averages out to 0.9 successes. If you increase expertise by 3 it becomes an average of 1.2 successes. It also becomes an average of 1.2 successes if you increase focus by 3. I'm honestly really impressed by the math on this, so congrats to whomever ran those numbers! While I was just eyeballing it, I was worried that focus would not be as valuable a purchase as expertise, but it's effectively an equivalent purchase that has a different effect.

On the topic of damage dice, I would also mention that you can see with the above numbers that the strongest weapon listed (a nimrod Mk1, 2+[DS8] damage, armor piercing 1) would need to roll 8 or better on DS dice (for a total of 10 damage with AP1; also I'm assuming that the AP1 applies toward damage to destroy cover) to damage your average light cover ([DS]2 of soak for an average of 1 soak) which is roughly a 6% chance. Destroying Heavy cover would go down to about a little over 2% chance. If the presence of cover adds difficulty to the shot, it also becomes less likely that momentum is generated which could increase damage. In essence, it's effectively impossible to damage cover in the current system, even with the most powerful weaponry.

I'm currently trying to determine if focus might actually be a better purchase than expertise, given that it still increases average number of successes, but also introduces/increases the chance of multiple successes. Buying the first point of focus is unequivocally better than buying the first point of expertise due to introducing the chance of 1-2 extra successes, but this is balanced by having to buy expertise 1 before buying focus 1. However, increasing focus by 1 will always increase the chance of having 3-4 successes by more than increasing expertise by 1. Therefore, the ideal purchase order would be to always by 1 expertise, followed by maxing out focus, followed by increasing the rest of expertise. I propose a simple solution to this: never allow focus to be higher than expertise. This may already be an intended rule, but I am unable to find mention of it in the playtest documents. However, I would strongly encourage making this simple change, as there is an unequivocal advantage to buying focus over expertise. This is also not taking into account the increased chance of gaining 2 successes by buying focus rather than expertise, which makes Focus even better.

I also noted that the chance of having 1 success actually starts to go down at a certain TN, until it becomes more likely that two successes will be achieved than one. Interestingly, the higher that focus is, the higher the TN is when this occurs (TN 11 for focus 0, 12 for Focus 1, 12 for Focus 2, 13 for Focus 3, etc.) I could see this being a small argument favoring increasing expertise rather than focus, but its not really a big enough effect versus the effect that Focus has on increasing the chance of multiple successes.

All in all, though, the math looks good so far, and looks to curve well. I am noting that the average successes don't hit 2 except when using signature skills or extra d20s, however. This means that momentum is actually going to be a fairly rare resource for players, and that difficulties above 2 will all but require buying d20s in order to succeed.
[Last edited Jul 15, 2014 23:38:25]
Nicholas Simpson said Jul 15, 2014 21:32:55
Ah, I just realized that I forgot about the bonus damage. However, that also leads to another question.

Chapter 11
-Page 38 under bonus damage: this extra damage is listed as d6 instead of DS. Does this mean 6s rolled for these don't count as DSIs, or is this a typo?

Also, crap, I just added in the total chance of success. Focus does not increase it, while Expertise does. So yeah, I'd say they are equal and you can ignore my above rant on it.
[Last edited Jul 15, 2014 21:48:28]
Chris Edwards said Jul 16, 2014 04:46:11
Just a couple of things I noticed...
1. In several places (like on the Critical Injury Effects Table) is mentions that the character must spend a DSP (and usually something else).
As only the GM has a DSP does this really mean that the player must give the GM a DSP ?
If so, it would be clearer to say "give the GM a DSP" instead of "spend a DSP".
As a character never has any Dark Symmetry Points they can't "spend" something they do not have ;-)
Also if this is the case, how the GM gets DSP (page 57) should be modified to add in these options.

2. Page 23. Starting Chronicle Points
It still says a new character can begin with up to 5 CP, reduced to a refresh of 3 CP after the first session. But now the character creation uses Life Points not CP, yes they can be converted to one use CP at the end of character creation but, really, would anyone ever do this ?
I think it would simplify matters just to say a character starts each session with 3 CP and remove the option in character creation to convert leftover LP to one use CP. Frankly there are just so many better things to do with LP I can't see anyone ever converting them to CP.

Chris Edwards said Jul 16, 2014 07:10:24
Just a quick question :)
Do GM characters suffer critical failures ??
Nathan.Dowdell said Jul 16, 2014 13:12:35
"Chapter 11
-Page 38 under bonus damage: this extra damage is listed as d6 instead of DS. Does this mean 6s rolled for these don't count as DSIs, or is this a typo?"

This is a legacy issue - the bonus damage table has existed for many iterations of the rules, but we've only recently been switching over to the DS notation for damage dice. When I was compiling the playtest documents, I didn't have time to put together a replacement damage table (as it's an image, rather than a table, for formatting purposes). Bonus damage and bonus Influence is in DS.

"Just a couple of things I noticed...
1. In several places (like on the Critical Injury Effects Table) is mentions that the character must spend a DSP (and usually something else).
As only the GM has a DSP does this really mean that the player must give the GM a DSP ?
If so, it would be clearer to say "give the GM a DSP" instead of "spend a DSP".
As a character never has any Dark Symmetry Points they can't "spend" something they do not have ;-)
Also if this is the case, how the GM gets DSP (page 57) should be modified to add in these options. "

It should be clarified, but broadly speaking, where an action or option costs a DSP, then it means the following: if the acting character is a player character, the GM gains 1DSP (the player 'pays' the GM by increasing the DSP pool). If the acting character is an NPC, the GM spends 1DSP. As most of the rules apply equally to both PCs and NPCs, DSP cost is a two-way street.

Those issues leapt out at me as something to address - I haven't the time right at the moment to address any others (I'm still working on other sections), though rest assured that all comments and discussion is being collected for an extensive review of this version.
Game Development - 2D20 System
System Design - Star Trek Adventures

Rules questions and playtest feedback to
Nicholas Simpson said Jul 16, 2014 21:46:57
Chapter 20: assets, resources, & acquisitions
-General: are there rules somewhere on how to get assets? Hard to judge balance without knowing what level of assets people will have to work with. Some items I'm the equipment chapter cost over 20, which is going to require A LOT of assets to get ahold of.

-General: are there rules for selling items/using them as assets?

-page 106-107 under earnings table: the names of earnings levels are different from those in the character creation document. Also, can it be assumed that most status based things (food, housing, clothes) can be automatic based in earnings?

-page 108 under apply assets for purchasing power: mathematically, it's always a better idea to just roll enough asset dice to average out the needed number of successes (each asset die is worth .5 successes). Every two asset die (average worth of 1 success/asset) have a 30% chance of rolling a DSI and costing an asset. Asset dice don't average out to one DSI unto there are six of them being rolled. Unless a player just likes to gamble with bad odds, the smarter move is in putting what you can into rolling to average out the number of successes you need.

-page 108 under pooling resource and assistance: players can only assist the roll to purchase a found item by permanently spending assets and not rolling them?

-page 109 under using influence: so these asset dice get rolled during the apply assets step, correct? Am I correct in reading that the influence bonus effectively adds to the pool of asset dice available to the player (eg if a player has 2 assets and 5DS worth of influence he can roll up to 7 asset dice)? What happens if a player rolls more DSIs than he has asset dice? Also, should these dice be tracked separately and have DSIs create social costs as well as losing an asset, or would this only come up if they put assets into the negatives? CAN you go into the negatives, or does it stop at 0?

-General: how would this work for acquiring something in person? IE the player is offered a purchase without having to find it first? Would you roll persuade to haggle with the seller then proceed as normal, even if the item is illegal with no option to roll lifestyle? How long does the regular acquisition process take?

-General: what are the rules for acquiring multiples of an item?

Chapter 22: weapon overview
-Page 112 under Range: does the penalty for being outside of range count for being both closer than the range AND farther (eg if a weapon is medium range difficulty is +1 for close and long) or is it only for ranges longer than the effective range (eg medium range weapons have no penalty for short range)

-page 112 under Availability and under Cost: are these meant to be analogous to restriction and value, respectively, from chapter 20? If so, which is the correct term?

-page 112 under Reloads: will the encumbrance and cost of reloads be listed when the weapon tables are incorporated into the book? Does the class referred to for reloads mean the Classification in the current weapons tables (eg. Pistols, shotguns, etc) or is it based on what firing mode a weapon has? Will special class weapons each have their own reload cost and encumbrance?

Page 112-113 under Reloads: so whenever 1 reload is spent, either by a firing mode or by a complication, the player marks one reload off and must spend a reload action before being able to fire again, correct?

-page 113 under Munitions: I assume a table will be added later including grenades and rockets? Does a player not have to state what kind of load he has in a munitions weapon until he actually fires it? If so, I absolutely support this rule. However, the Change Load action on page 29 contradicts this reading. So do you have to say what load is in your weapon as soon as it is loaded?

-General: I note nothing about dual-wielding. Can you do it, does it have penalties, and does it have an effect? I know there's a lot of game balance things behind this, as well as a desire to not over complicate the rules. Maybe just have a flat difficulty increase of 1 (or 2 for unbalanced weapons), declare a primary and secondary weapon, and allow DSIs be used to add 1 damage each or activate qualities of the second weapon (including ones that normally don't need to be activated)?

-page 114 under Weapon Qualities: the explanation for increasing qualities by letting rip is unclear. It sort of seems like it's saying that a weapon will indicate what it gains by letting rip, but, but no weapons do this. Is it meant to say that any qualities with X will increase by the letting rip amount of the weapon?

-page 114 under Armor Piercing: is this meant to imply that each DSI can increase armor piercing by X? So if you have AP 1 and roll a DSI it increases by 1 but if you have AP 2 and roll a DSI it increases by 2?

-General: do DSIs activate every quality of a weapon or do you have to choose?

-page 114 under Blast: does blast affect the firer if he's in range?

-page 114 under Burning: okay, so this has an X rating and then the status effect has an X rating. First, it would be best to include the Effects of burning status effect under the entry for this quality. Second, let me see if this is right. Hitting someone with a Burning X weapon causes them to have that status for DSI number of rounds/the listed duration. At the end of each turn, the target suffers X damage to a random location where X is the rating of the weapon quality burning/the source of the burning. The wounds caused by this having the Burning 1 quality, which I don't know the meaning of. I think it's meant to be a way for the fire to spread, but I'm not sure how it works. My guess is that anything touched by a burning character will also gain the burning status but I don't know if this can be dodged or how long that will last, etc. The character can attempt a recovery test of difficulty X, where X is the rating of the weapon quality/burning source.

-page 115 under Close Quarters: so what is the normal penalty for engaging with a non-close quarters weapon? Can any weapon be used in close quarters?

-page 115 under Corrupted: can a called shit be used for the firer to choose the equipment corrupted?

-General: can called shot be used to target equipment directly? Any rules for destroying equipment? Might i suggest just reusing the corruption damage rules only replacing damage rolled by corruption with damage rolled by a weapon? Possibly adding a quality like Fragile X where an item only soaks equal to X even if it has a high encumbrance.

-Page 115 under Full Defense: I assume that the benefits of Parry X conferred have the X for parry equal to the X for Full Defense?

-Page 115 under Mind Breaker: it would be good to include a summary for mental assaults here or at least the page number

-page 116 under Toxic: does this damage ignore soak?

-PREVIOUS CHAPTER page 31 under Exploit Weakness: what does it mean that this cannot be used with fully automatic? Can it not be used in conjunction with letting rip? Can it not be used with automatic weapons? What about semi auto and burst?

-page 116 under Vile: what if the serious wounds are full? Does supernatural healing remove ALL wounds from Vile at once, and does it only do so on a successful test? It would help for the character sheet to have something to track vile wounds

Chapter 23: Equipment Overview
-General: lots of these items mention adding momentum used to reduce time. Will there be an entry in the basic rules for timescales (I assume minutes/rounds, hours, days, weeks) and will skills elaborate on how long things take?

-General: items with restrictions of 4+ are damn near impossible to get ahold of without chronicle points. Intended?

-page 117: are the different corporation stats meant for if you want to buy a generic item by that corporation? Do they apply to weapons and armor? Can you apply them to items that are listed as being from a different corporation?

-page 117 under Bauhaus: are the additional soak and cost already accounted with Bauhaus items? Also wow, double the cost just for extra soak? Seems excessive.

-General: is corruptibility the same as reliability?

-General: are there any special rules for cybernetics and having them installed?

-Page 118 under Buy Mishima: what happens when corruptibility is reduced below 1 or below 0? Is the lower corruptibility and encumbrance already accounted for in item stats?

-Page 118 under Buy Cybertronic: why is cybertronic twice as expensive and incorruptible when Bauhaus only gets +1 and is twice as expensive? Are these stats already taken into account for items?

-Page 118 under Artificial Intelligence: can this be added to items, or is it only on hose already listed? For those listed, is the change in corruptibility already taken into account? Can you have artificial intelligence on Cybertronic items?

-page 117 under Animal Handling: will there be an example list of some animals and their costs?

-page 117 under Habitat: does the cost of this scale at all depending in the animal or is it always the same? Should the encumbrance for this be fixed? Also, fixed encumbrance should be defined (I assume it means unable to be moved)

-page 117 under Handlers Kit: what does the "armor 1" in "armor 1 soak 4" mean? Does this apply to only one arm? Does this apply armor only to bites from the specific animal, any animal, or any attack? A restraining kit is mentioned but there is no cost listed for it. Is it included in the cost of a non-potable handlers kit? If the point of a restraining kit is that it restrains the animal, why would further checks need to be made to control it anyway if it's locked up? Do these provide a bonus to skill checks or are they just required to make them? Is this basically saying that using a portable kit requires a new check every time the animal gets a new stimulus and a non-portable requires only one check ever once it's been used? Does this mean that you can make a free action to command animals and they'll just do it if they've been trained?

-page 118 under pheromone dispenser: this mentions a control test. Are there rules for this elsewhere or will they be listed? How does the effect work? Does this acting like a non-portable kit mean you only need to make one test on the animal and no others?

-page 118 under Climbing Kit: does a difficulty 1 yes not have a penalty for not using equipment? Can only one person benefit from the kit at once or can multiple people use it?Does using the micro winch for a second character mean you both get the bonus?

-page 118 under diving Kit: so the wetsuit doesn't provide a benefit in non-cold water? Is oxygen included in the cost of the diving suit? Is the cost for oxygen listed to buy 3 loads or 1?

-page 119 under library: is the cost of an institutional or expensive restricted library one time for membership, or do you pay for each use? Are institutional libraries limited to only one librarian to be hired? Do you have to pay to hire a librarian each time you use them?

-page 119 under SARAH: can Sarah only store one library at a time? Does it require an implant?

-page 119 under DIANA: if this comes with SARAH for free, why does it cost twice as much as SARAH to buy by itself.

-page 119 under Lie Detector: does this imply that you cannot tell if someone is lying normally, only guess at it, unless you have a lie detector? Is using the audio stress analyzer obvious, or can it be used secretly?

-page 129 under lifestyle: are the various housings a one time cost or do they have to be paid for monthly/weekly?

-page 120 under Meals and Entertainments: so how would bribing work? Would you just make an acquisition roll, would it be contested by the person, or what?

-page 121 under Library: is linguistics skill used to do research in these or is education?

-page 121 under workshop: what size office is required? Can you out it in An apartment? Do parts do anything tiger than replace this in the heavy toolkit?

-page 122 under Micro Factory: why would you pay an asset for a part when you could just acquire it for free? what size office is required and can you out it in an apartment?

-page 122 under Meditation Room: are these healing and exorcism rules meant for the exorcism spells? Would this room just decrease difficulty or add momentum or something?

-page 122 under Power Controller: it would be easier to include its rules here, too, rather than requiring flipping back and forth

-page 122: under library: is the mysticism skill used for researching in one of these, or is education?

-page 122 under telescope/binoculars: rather than making the penalty for peripheral
vision, which seems like a rare thing to come up in game and difficult to describe, why not penalize noticing an ambush/anything around the character when it's used. Also, does using the scope on weapons negate range penalties, meaning a close range weapon could be used at long/extreme range with no penalty? Is using it optional, in that case? If it is only usable for observation checks, it makes little sense to give it a dodge penalty, as no one is likely going to be using it for that in the middle of combat. Also, do you not get a dodge penalty when using the regular binoculars?

-page 122 under Night Vision Goggles: this says telescopic vision rather than night vision goggles in the description. Same for peripheral vision as above. Is there a scope form of this?

-page 123 under multispectrum optics: can this be used on a scope?

-General: what's the difference between 0 and negligible encumbrance?

-page 123 under EYE tronic: do the various vision modes still cause the same penalties when used? Can you have multiple ones at once? Is buying them the same cost as the normal ones?

-page 123 under psychotherapy: are the treatment room and theatre a one time purchase or do they have to be paid for each use?

-page 123 under Treatment Regimen: is this the cost of hiring a therapist or is it a tool used for therapy? If the former, what are the stats for the therapist? If the latter can it only be used with the psychosurgical theater and only purchased separately?

-page 123 under camouflage: is this meant to say that it adds to opposed STEALTH tests?

-page 124 under Survival: the entry for the colonists kit is cut off and also if it's more comprehensive why does it cost the same?

-page 124 under treatment: do any of these affect use of the medicine skill? Also, does buying coagulant replenish one dose or all three?

-page 124 under med kit basic: what is the difficulty penalty for not having this? The treatment skill does not mention needing this.

-page 124 under automed: what is a surgical Waldo? Also, this mentions being built into power armor only, but npc here are no suits of power armor listed. Surely it could fit in a shoulder pad...

-page 124 under medkit hospital: so the coagulant is only used for first aid but you need medicine trained to use it?

-page 124 under automed advanced: so the only difference is this includes a hospital medkit? Can it not be built in to anything?

-page 124-125 under surgical automed: so the only benefit of this over an automed is that it has unlimited coagulant? seems kind of weak.

-page 126 under Armor: the shoulder pad entries in the chart don't mention their benefit to head/body. There is also an entry for military double should pads. Are these meant to be super big pads, or is it meant to reflect wearing both shoulder pads? Is the additional +1 to head/body of military shoulder pads in addition to the plus one of civilian (making it +2 for military) or do they both provide just +1?does this +1 stack with existing armor or just replace it?

-page 127 under Bauhaus: good lord this stuff is expensive!

-page 127: hussar mark IV: how many reloads and what medical supplies are includes? Please list them. Do they add to encumbrance?

-page 128 under Brotherhood: armor is mentioned to include rebreathers but this is not an item listed anywhere. Does this also include oxygen? How do they work? Can members of the brotherhood not purchase this armor legally and instead only get it illegally or receive it from someone? Also, is the mention of this being the costs for illegal purchasing mean that there were rules that made illegal items cost more than legal items? Is the mentioned support system that enable easier movement already accounted for by encumbrance values or do they not have a related rule?

-page 129 under quietus armor: does the cloak in this armor mentioned as obfuscating the wearer have any effect in the rules?

-page 130 under tortoise: is the includes medkit a Basic Med Kit? does it add to encumbrance?

-page 131: under Imperial: some of the armor is listed as including a gas mask but there are no stats for this item. Also, does the Mk II include the gas mask? The Mk III?

-Page 132 under Ballistic Trenchcoat: this mentions it being worn in addition to other armor, but the rules say armor does not stack so it wouldn't make sense to wear it over other armor.

-Page 132 under Mishima: Power armor is mentioned here a lot. Is there a missing section on power armor?
Nicholas Simpson said Jul 17, 2014 02:16:27
I'm basically taking the first weapon in each class to use as a baseline and then comparing other weapons to it. I'm trying to compare all of the relevant stats by assigning points to them.

--Range: C=1 pt, M=2 pt, L=3 pt
--Damage: 1 Damage=2 pt, 1 [DS]=1 pt
--Mode: Mode 1=2 pt, Mode 2=4 pt, Mode 3=6 pt, M=0 pt I think this may be a bit controversial, given that firing mode is restricted by having Reloads on hand to use up, but given the nature of the game it makes sense for this to be used at least once a fight, and taking into account that the more skilled someone gets, the better that extra D20 becomes.
--Encumbrance: I have three different ways of measuring this, due to some issues. Encumbrance makes stuff heavier but also makes it harder to damage with corruption. It's also a heavily ignored rule. I'm including results for ignoring encumbrance, subtracting it from the final total, and subtracting half of encumbrance from the final total.
--Size: Unwieldy=1 Pt, 2-H=2 pt, Unbalanced=3 pt, 1-H=4 pt
--Reliability: 1 Reliability=1 pt
--Qualities: Each quality is worth 1 point (or X points if the quality has X). Having a grenade launcher/flamethrower attachment is worth 1 point, +0.1 points for each reliability the launcher has, -0.1 points if it is close range and +0.1 points if it is long range. The decimals are to differentiate among different types of launchers.

So I have my comparisons below. The first just shows rankings for, from left to right, not accounting for encumbrance, subtracting encumbrance from points, and subtracting half encumbrance from points. You can see that there's a lot of differences in how weapons stack up, depending on what system is used.

This shows rankings by weapon classification.

So you can see that within the weapon classes there is a lot of differentiation, which may or may not be a good thing. I also noticed at least one case (MP-105 and P1000) of weapons being completely identical. There are a good deal of other weapons with pretty small cosmetic differences. For lots of classes, there is one weapon that is obviously bad, one that is a slight improvement, one okay weapon with a higher firing rate, one better weapon with a higher firing rate, and occasionally one weapon with some interesting qualities. I'd really like to see a lot more done with the weapon qualities as a way to distinguish weapons rather than just adjusting things like reliability and encumbrance up and down. My ideal would be for each class of weapons to have: (A) one weapon with solid damage, reliability, encumbrance, range, and size, (B) one weapon that sacrifices some of those for a higher firing rate, (C) one weapon that sacrifices some of those for higher damage, and (D) 2-3 weapons that sacrifice some of those for interesting qualities. Here's an example of what I'd do:

Bolter: Range(C), Damage 1+4[DS], Mode (1), Enc (2), Size (1-H), Reliability (3), Close Quarters
Iron Fist: Range (C), Damage 1+4[DS], Mode (1), Enc (4), Size (Unbalanced), Reliability (3), Close Quarters & Grenade Launcher
Ronin: Range (C), Damage 1+2 [DS], Mode (3), Enc (3), Size (Unbalanced), Reliability (2), Close Quarters
P1000: Range(C), Damage 1+4[DS], Mode (1), Enc (2), Size (1-H), Reliability (2), Close Quarters & Spread 1
Aggressor: Range(C), Damage 1+6[DS], Mode (1), Enc (4), Size (2-H), Reliability (2), Close Quarters & Knockdown
MP-105: Range(C), Damage 1+4[DS], Mode (1), Enc (2), Size (1-H), Reliability (2), Close Quarters & AP 1
Punisher: Range(C), Damage 1+3[DS], Mode (2), Enc (3), Size (Unbalanced), Reliability (2), Close Quarters & Ammo (Burning 1)
Pirahna: Range(M), Damage 1+5[DS], Mode (1), Enc (4), Size (Unbalanced), Reliability (1), Close Quarters

In order, you have a reliable weapon (Bolter), a grenade launcher pistol (Iron Fist), Rapid Fire (Ronin), Flechette pistol (P1000), Heavy damage/magnum (Aggressor), Armor Piercer (MP-105), a flame shooting pistol (Punisher), and a distance pistol (Pirahna). I honestly wouldn't mind if in order to have weapons like this with some more uniqueness there had to be less weapons. I also don't like using weapon cost as a primary balancing factor for weapons, as players will typically be either swimming in money or starved for it, and they either don't get to play with the cool guns or the cost balance ends up disappearing. I think it's better to have all of the weapons in a class be roughly equivalent, with minor price variations. You can and will start introducing better and more expensive weapons in the Corp Books, so there's no worry of a player who wants to use a pistol at high levels falling behind too much.
[Last edited Jul 17, 2014 20:00:44]
Nicholas Simpson said Jul 17, 2014 15:43:07
Character Creation
-Page 1 under Attributes: as a note, the summaries for attributes in this section don't include all of the skills they actually govern. I'm listing them here with the correct amount:

Agility (*Acrobatics*, *Close Combat*, Stealth, *Unarmed Combat*; Factor in Unarmed and Close Damage) 6 total
Awareness (Insight, Observation, Thievery; Factor in Gunnery, Heavy Weapons, and Ranged Weapons damage); 6 total
Coordination (*Gunnery*, *Heavy Weapons*, Pilot, *Ranged Weapons*, Space; Factor in Gunnery, Heavy Weapons, and Ranged Weapons damage); 8 total
Intelligence (Education, Linguistics, Mechanics, Medicine, Psychotherapy, Sciences, Survival, Treatment, Vacuum; Factor for Influence, Factor for starting Expertise); 11 total
Mental Strength (*Mysticism*, *Willpower*; Factor In Mental Health, Factor for Starting Focus); 4 total
Personality (Animal Handling, Command, Lifestyle, Persuade; Factor for Influence); 5 total
Physique (Resilience; Factor for Physical Health); 2 total
Strength (Athletics; Factor in Unarmed and Close damage, Factor in Physical Health) 4 total

So you can see that there's a good deal of unevenness between the 8 attributes. There are 29 skills spread among them, damage bonuses for 5 fighting skills, factors for physical and mental health, a factor for influence, and factors for starting expertise and focus. I out asterisks around skills that I expect to be rolled a lot in most campaigns, those based on combat. However, there is a general imbalance, particularly for physique.

Let's assume that combat-based skills are worth two points, as they will be rolled more frequently and health factors are worth 3 points for physical and 4 points for mental, as they help you survive. That puts Agility at 9 points, Awareness at 6 points, Coordination at 11 points, Intelligence at 11 points, Mental Strength at 9 points (as the sole determinant of mental health), Personality at 5 points, Physique at 4 points, and strength at 6 points.

So what can be done? Here are some suggested changes:
--Swap Unarmed Combat to Strength (strength is now 8, agility 7) which is a logical change.
--Swap Gunnery skill to Awareness (awareness 8, coordination 9). This change is a little less logical, but running gunnery has a lot less to do with holding the weapon properly than it does being able to calculate position and changing targets.
--Swap Psychotherapy to Personality (personality 6, intelligence 10). I can speak as a psychologist that personality is a huge part of what makes a good therapist.
--Make Influence solely reliant on Personality (Personality 7, Intelligence 9). This makes purchasing almost entirely the wheelhouse of personality, but this attribute needs the boost.
--Swap Vacuum to Physique (Intelligence 8, Physique 5). This change is probably one of the odder changes, but a read of the talents for vacuum make it sound more like a body conditioning thing anyway, so I think it fits.
--Make Physique the sole factor for physical health, doubling its value (physique 8, strength 5). Physique needs this boost.
--Swap close combat to Strength (strength 7, agility 5). Again, this is a logical change, and it's needed for strength, especially given that acrobatics can overlap with a lot of athletics uses.
--Swap space and pilot to Agility (coordination 7, agility 7). These logically make more sense with coordination, but for the sake of balance this change would be needed.

You'd be left with this:
Agility (*Acrobatics*, Pilot, Space, Stealth, ; Factor in Unarmed and Close Damage) 7 total
Awareness (*Gunnery*, Insight, Observation, Thievery; Factor in Gunnery, Heavy Weapons, and Ranged Weapons damage); 8 total
Coordination (*Heavy Weapons*, *Ranged Weapons*; Factor in Gunnery, Heavy Weapons, and Ranged Weapons damage); 7 total
Intelligence (Education, Linguistics, Mechanics, Medicine, Sciences, Survival, Treatment; Factor for starting Expertise); 8 total
Mental Strength (*Mysticism*, *Willpower*; Factor In Mental Health, Factor for Starting Focus); 9 total
Personality (Animal Handling, Command, Lifestyle, Persuade, Psychotherapy; Factor for Influence); 7 total
Physique (Resilience, Vacuum; Factor for Physical Health); 8 total
Strength (Athletics, *Close Combat*, *Unarmed Combat*; Factor in Unarmed and Close damage) 7 total

So here we end up with a much more balanced attribute spread. The only things sticking out are that ranged weapons skills are no longer all attached to one attribute (although gunnery is going to be much more rarely used) and that Mental Strength is slightly better than the other attributes. These changes overall though are much more balanced in terms of making each attribute have value. Agility is useful for damage and a variety of skills, awareness helps with damage and several skills, coordination is a must for ranged attacking, intelligence has a bunch of skills, mental strength has willpower and mental health, personality has skills and influence, physique has some skills and physical health, and strength has close combat skills and damage.
Sebastian Fredenberg said Jul 18, 2014 11:06:19
@fritz66ed: I'm quite certain that GM characters suffer from critical failures, that has been the case in all RPGs I have played. Also, there are enemies in the intro adventure that are more prone to critically fail.
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